Why most kungfu looks like kickboxing?

[Medway Tai Chi Society]

Why do some "advanced" kungfu practitioners look like kickboxers, and indeed use mainly kickboxing techniques when fighting, both in competition and actual combat?

My opinion is this...
These students are, infact, not as "advanced" as they would have us believe.
Pretty much every style of martial art is made up of basic techniques, such as straight punch, full-foot front kick etc... This is the level that the vast majority of practitioners reach. They can throw a refined punch, or kick.

But...

For whatever reason, be it their teacher either didn't know, or didn't share, these students do not posess the knowledge of the next level.

Application.

We all know that nearly all of the older Chinese martial styles are made up of forms/linked sets. We learn these pretty much from day one. The movements contained within the forms are the next level up from simple kickboxing. These applications deal with intercepting an oncoming attack, redirecting the energy of the opponents force and initiating a counter-attack before the opponent is able to re-assert himself.

It's not enough to simply practice the forms, and the basic techniques! Every kungfu student should seek to perfect the applications taught through the forms of their chosen style, be it Mantis, Fanzi, Bagua etc. The applications are the middle phase.

The last phase, the "freeform" phase.

Going beyond the forms and applications. I don't know

Opinions?

I've posted this on a couple of forums, and thought I would share it here also, to try and stimulate some discussion.

[wing chun]

Its not only the students that don't have the knowledge but also the instructors didn't stay long enough to learn how to teach the applications of the forms to help their students progress to the next level.

They are not only lying to themselves but to their students.

An Instructor must be able to explain what they are doing , why they are doing it , where and how it should be applied.

[Nigel]

I agree to some extent.

As you said, just about all martial arts styles involve different types of punches, or different types of kicks and how to block these. But I think if an instructor completely did not know what he was doing then he would be found out pretty quickly by the higher grades, or people switching schools and going further, their school would suffer.

I have seen schools though that have such a poor teacher, their high ranked students are poor, and even show no ambition. Most of the ambitious students would have moved to anoteher club.

Kung Fu, and the range of styles within it is highly diverse. There are so many techniques and strategies that will never be found in kickboxing. A good teach will make sure a student knows these. The problem is, you get get Kung Fu schools, and then you get real Kung Fu schools. Unfortunately the term 'Kung Fu' has been used by a lot of schools as a generic term attempting to depict a style. Kung Fu is a phrase that encapsulates many others founded in China.

My advice to people looking into starting Chinese martial arts, if you find a school that teaches Kung Fu, stay away from it. There's no way one teacher can teach all Chinese martial arts put together, which is what Kung Fu stands for. Many Kung Fu styles are completely different and bear very little relation to each other at all.

But keeping in on the debate here, yes some schools teach kung fu to a basic level of how to block a punch, or a kick and if you can perform some patterns then you will make it to a highly reputable sash color... utter nonsense! Martial arts, for any style (except pure self defense classes) should be taught with the point in mind of why every pattern or move it performed.

You have to ask yourself, what is it the point of learning a pattern if you don't know why it was developed and what it means.

[ashley]

It's not enough to simply practice the forms, and the basic techniques! Every kungfu student should seek to perfect the applications taught through the forms of their chosen style, be it Mantis, Fanzi, Bagua etc. The applications are the middle phase.

Exactly right, but this does not just apply to Chinese martial arts (Kung Fu). I once spoke to someone who was starting out in Taekwondo at another club from mine. He was pleased that he learnt a pattern quite easily and he was progressing quick.

I then proceeded to ask him why he has to learn this pattern and what does each point in the pattern mean in terms of defense/fighting. To that - he had no idea.

Why do clubs teach patterns if they don't bother to tell their students what these patterns are for and why they were originally developed!

[Ralphy]

Why do some "advanced" kungfu practitioners look like kickboxers, and indeed use mainly kickboxing techniques when fighting, both in competition and actual combat?

Maybe kickboxers indeed use techniques of Kung Fu, because it is so skillfull and useful in other martial arts it can be used. So you might ask, why does kickboxing looks so much like Kung Fu? - because Kung Fu is a great foundation of practicality.

[empty cup]

Sometimes you can see that the kung fu is being taught as an art form in itself almost like a dance or a sport, the fact that it is for self defence seems to be lost in some cases.

[Medway Tai Chi Society]

@empty cup

And that's the real shame.

[Medway Tai Chi Society]

Maybe kickboxers indeed use techniques of Kung Fu, because it is so skillfull and useful in other martial arts it can be used. So you might ask, why does kickboxing looks so much like Kung Fu? - because Kung Fu is a great foundation of practicality.

I think you misunderstand.
The question is "why does most kungfu look like bad kickboxing" - in other words, why do a lot of kungfu practitioners, of varying schools, always revert to generic kickboxing techniques when sparring or fighting, instead of using the techniques contained within their style, that make the most use of the style's philosophy and theory.

[Chaleira]

I think you misunderstand.
The question is "why does most kungfu look like bad kickboxing" - in other words, why do a lot of kungfu practitioners, of varying schools, always revert to generic kickboxing techniques when sparring or fighting, instead of using the techniques contained within their style, that make the most use of the style's philosophy and theory.

I'd like to pose a question here. Do you think it may have anything to do with San shou? From what I hear, a lot of Kung-fu schools teach this as well for competing in some tournaments.

[RobT]

I think you misunderstand.
The question is "why does most kungfu look like bad kickboxing" - in other words, why do a lot of kungfu practitioners, of varying schools, always revert to generic kickboxing techniques when sparring or fighting, instead of using the techniques contained within their style, that make the most use of the style's philosophy and theory.

Maybe cos kickboxing is a very generic art and the classes are run by people who probs did not learn kickboxing from their day 1. Some of my teachers also teach kickboxing on the side.