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Thread: To the ground or fight on your feet?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1844thx View Post
    Bruce lee said that if you want to succeed in the martial arts world, you have to know both grappling and stand up fighting. So, even though i prefer standing martial arts, i also am a wrestler(the sport). Wrestling, in my opinion, is not a martial art, however, it's better than nothing. my last resort would be BJJ, or MMA. There is no way i'm taking any of those.
    Where do you think sport wrestling came from?

    Also, anyone who quotes Bruce Lee always makes me giggle.
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    i think that if its a sport, then it's a sport. but a martial art is a way of life. modern wrestling came from a martial art( perhaps pankration ), but it evolved and became a competitive sport, mostly to win, not for a source of wisdom and a WAY to better oneself, which (in my opinion)define a martial art. Martial arts are used for different purposes depending on whoever practices it. I practice martial arts to help better myself, for self defense, wisdom, ect. So, if you practice martial arts to compete in tournaments, and to win awards, then modern wrestling could be perfect for you. Not for me though, i take wrestling for only self defense purposes, and to gain experience.


    I don't want to take brazilian jujitsu, or mixed martial arts because nowadays whenever someone talks about martial arts, then they think of MIXED martial arts. Some, who know more than just mma, and bjj are aware of the others, but i want to be more unique and i want to help spread the word of others such as aikido,(which whenever i talk about people are like "what? taekwondo??" ) . My other reason is that i prefer, and i know its a bad habit, to practice standing martial arts rather than ground ones. i don't know why, i just do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1844thx View Post
    i think that if its a sport, then it's a sport. but a martial art is a way of life. modern wrestling came from a martial art( perhaps pankration ), but it evolved and became a competitive sport, mostly to win, not for a source of wisdom and a WAY to better oneself, which (in my opinion)define a martial art. Martial arts are used for different purposes depending on whoever practices it. I practice martial arts to help better myself, for self defense, wisdom, ect. So, if you practice martial arts to compete in tournaments, and to win awards, then modern wrestling could be perfect for you. Not for me though, i take wrestling for only self defense purposes, and to gain experience.

    I don't want to take brazilian jujitsu, or mixed martial arts because nowadays whenever someone talks about martial arts, then they think of MIXED martial arts. Some, who know more than just mma, and bjj are aware of the others, but i want to be more unique and i want to help spread the word of others such as aikido,(which whenever i talk about people are like "what? taekwondo??" ) . My other reason is that i prefer, and i know its a bad habit, to practice standing martial arts rather than ground ones. i don't know why, i just do...
    nothing wrong with that, although wrestling has a long history in many cultures east and west. Personally I believe it was the basis of martial arts rather than the other way round. Warrior classes in society also has a rich and varied history and it is the traits and traditions of these classes that have been built on to provide the "way" that many refer to these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empty cup View Post
    nothing wrong with that, although wrestling has a long history in many cultures east and west. Personally I believe it was the basis of martial arts rather than the other way round. Warrior classes in society also has a rich and varied history and it is the traits and traditions of these classes that have been built on to provide the "way" that many refer to these days.
    Yeah, i believe in the same thing, that every culture in the world today had their own form of wrestling. Japanese sumo, okinawan tegumi, greek pankration, chinese shuai jiao,, ect. and alot of the martial arts that come from that country evolved from a form of wrestling or grappling. For an example, okinawans had tegumi, which after experience with fighting off japanese pirates developed into TE, which combined with chinese and japanese martial arts and became okinawan karate, which gichin funakoshi took from okinawa and spread across japan to create SHOTOKAN karate-do, and americans from WWII spread it over to the west and it became as the karate that we know of today.

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    Very good post. I have noticed to that a lot of mma fighters tend to grapple more than strike anymore. Personally I prefer striking but as a martial artist striking, grappling, and takedowns go both ways.
    If you can end a fight by striking by all means do that.
    But if you have to take the fight to the ground... so be it.
    In a way it is better to stay on your feet because ground fighting can change really quick. But so can striking. A KO comes and goes if you get what I mean.
    So.... you need to know when it is best to stay standing or go to the ground. I usually start off striking and if I can I try to take you down with a throw or leg sweep for some ground and pound or a submission. But if my takedown doesn't work, or I feel I have failed my initial objective and that I am open to a reversal or something I am always quick to get up to my feet.
    As I fighter you must fight smart and what if most comfortable to you. But a mix of striking and grappling is a good thing.

    Peace to you and Keep training my Friend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1844thx View Post
    i think that if its a sport, then it's a sport. but a martial art is a way of life.
    I think your heart is in the right place here mate, but you are a little off the mark.

    In Japanese there is a term 格闘技 (Kakutougi) and 武道 (budo). Both of these words mean martial art but they are a little bit different. Kakutougi literally translates "fighting style techniques" where as budo translates as "martial way", with the way being road or honorable pursuit.

    Things with "do" in them tend to be ways of life but they are not exclusive to martial arts. 茶道 (sado) and 華道 (kado) for example are tea ceremony and flower arranging but both use the "do" kanji for being a way of life.

    Now, wrestling is a martial art but it is a martial art in the kakutougi sense rather than the budo sense. 空手道 (karate do) is a martial art in both senses because it uses fighting techniques and is an honorable pursuit.

    柔道 (judo) is now a little bit iffy. Real judo is both kakutougi and budo, however in my experience a lot of Japanese judoka and other martial artists feel that Olympic judo is now just a kakutougi and is no longer budo because it has become just a sport and has lost a lot of it's dignity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy102 View Post
    Real judo is both kakutougi and budo, however in my experience a lot of Japanese judoka and other martial artists feel that Olympic judo is now just a kakutougi and is no longer budo because it has become just a sport and has lost a lot of it's dignity.
    Can Olympic judo be judged without considering its practitioners? Some practitioners might use it only for techniques, but that doesn't lessen its potential for other MAists. And a craft can grow into a way of life if the artist treats it as one.

    (Gardening comes to mind -- you can do it or be it. Japanese gardens are amazing -- is there a "___do" for gardening as well as flower arranging?)

    To bring back the topic of grappling, if your eyes are used to seeing the world only from standing height, you miss a lot of potential techniques. It's great to learn to fight without using your height or suffering from its lack (you may guess that I'm well under 2m). And the techniques become part of your "way" and affect your outlook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    Can Olympic judo be judged without considering its practitioners? Some practitioners might use it only for techniques, but that doesn't lessen its potential for other MAists. And a craft can grow into a way of life if the artist treats it as one.
    I didn't have to search for long to find this video. A prime example of why Olympic judo is not budo.



    From pretty much the 1:00 mark the guy in blue started his celebration. Blowing kisses and pumping his fists like a monkey. If you did that in a real karate tournament you would either get totally scorned by everyone or disqualified for not maintaining respect for your opponent. The fact that a lot of practitioners do this kind of thing and the fact the judges allow it is a strong case about it just becoming wrestling in dogi and not true judo.

    An ex-Yokozuna named Asashoryu got into a huge amount of trouble last year for doing such celebrations after winning a match.



    Part of his lack of respect for his opponents lead to his downfall and forced retirement.

    These monkey celebrations are not becoming of an honorable pursuit.


    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    (Gardening comes to mind -- you can do it or be it. Japanese gardens are amazing -- is there a "___do" for gardening as well as flower arranging?)
    I don't know of any 道 (do) for gardening I'm afraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy102 View Post
    I didn't have to search for long to find this video. A prime example of why Olympic judo is not budo.



    From pretty much the 1:00 mark the guy in blue started his celebration. Blowing kisses and pumping his fists like a monkey. If you did that in a real karate tournament you would either get totally scorned by everyone or disqualified for not maintaining respect for your opponent. The fact that a lot of practitioners do this kind of thing and the fact the judges allow it is a strong case about it just becoming wrestling in dogi and not true judo.

    An ex-Yokozuna named Asashoryu got into a huge amount of trouble last year for doing such celebrations after winning a match.

    Part of his lack of respect for his opponents lead to his downfall and forced retirement.
    These monkey celebrations are not becoming of an honorable pursuit.
    Asashoryu may have gotten in trouble afterwards, but I notice that the people present were supportive of him, as they were of the Azerbaijani judoka in the first clip. The judgment came later, from the seniors in his sport. It's not inconceivable to me that the guy in the first clip will change his behaviour as he ages and has more chance to consider his actions (he's what, 20?).

    The idea that Olympic sports have departed from the true "spirit" of sport is commonplace, but people who are concerned about it work to improve it, by considering how to adjust iffy judging, participant doping, inappropriate behavior etc. Budo seems to me to be something that needs to be developed and worked at, not that appears naturally and effortlessly.

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